How Wives Can Do Better

In today’s episode, we look at the complex needs of marriages and how wives can support their husbands. We talk about the kind of women’s content that is out there, and the lack of guidance spouses get in how they can support their spouse navigating shame. Let’s jump in!

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:04

You're listening to To Become Family, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and family life, and welcome to another episode of To Become Family. I was thinking of how to intro this today, and it is not you who are joining us. We are joining you on your walk, your daily walk, or your commute, or just because your wife said listen to this, welcome. We're happy to be able to join you with whatever you're doing.

Speaker 1 0:53

I don't know what it means, and for something in my hands, yeah that I'm going to shake the screen and, yes, we're happy to be here. We are Renzo and Monarch Ortega and we are your hosts of helping to try to explain things in ways that make sense, but are still Catholic and trying not to stir up too much controversy. I haven't even gotten a chance to look at all the YouTube comments from the last episode. I have to like spend time tomorrow and just like look at all of them and respond to them, like thanks to their own.

Speaker 1 1:22

Yeah, they're kind of you I just want to be like thank you Great. I don't know Like people are going back and forth on them, which is kind of like. It's like people arguing on your lawn Like as long as you don't mess up the grass, thank you, I mean we invited them there, didn't we? Yeah, I don't know, no, but I've told Monarch and not to look at YouTube comments because it's just a cesspool.

Speaker 2 1:42

People are not going to do things and I didn't listen. Well thank you for the nice people, though there's been a few nice ones.

Speaker 1 1:48

I haven't looked at them yet. I have to, but those of you that are supporting us there, thank you, and we're also going to be putting this on YouTube. But so today we are going to try to shift the conversation. I think it's important to kind of build on the things we talked about last week, but I want to shift it to focusing on the wife and the bride, because we did get some comments, our turn. We did get some comments of people saying, well, I think it'll be interesting the way we do this, because one it's off the cuff because Monica doesn't know what we're doing.

Speaker 2 2:19

As per usual.

Speaker 1 2:20

And number two because I don't think it's going to go the way people may assume. I feel the comments from YouTube are saying like why find about this whole red pill thing and men needing to be better husbands and fathers. Like why, like what's keeping the wife accountable? Which is an interesting question, it's an interesting way of phrasing it.

Speaker 2 2:41

Why is there always the focus on the guy?

Speaker 1 2:43

And that's not a. I think that's a very common thing. That's said by a lot of men that are influencing. I don't want to say it. I went through a few other podcasts just to hear what their perspectives were, and a lot of it are like well, it's unfair, everything is about what the guy has to be doing, which they're not wrong about.

Speaker 1 3:04

I think a lot of the stuff that's out there is focused on husbands, but so, like my train of thought, I think will make sense. Hopefully it makes sense for throughout the rest of the episode, but like I get that that's how it feels, like it feels like we're really coming down on husbands and I think it doesn't make sense for husbands and it can be actually negative for a lot of husbands if every time they're called out, it elicits shame. And I think that's the key to thinking about this, because the idea of shame and guilt, I think is very important and I think it's going to be very big for this conversation, because even I think it'll help with like wives. This is how you should speak to your husbands, this is how you should encourage them, this is how you should build them up and even recognizing within yourself, like your experiences of shame.

Speaker 2 3:54

If you just look at the episode in isolation.

Speaker 2 3:56

Yes, like the men were more targeted. That was the point of the conversation. But I wonder if part of that is that, like, why are men kind of getting a bad rap and why are we focused on fixing guys? I guess, if we're painting broad strokes and maybe this is just from personal experience but I think that women are constantly working on themselves or trying to because they feel this sense of guilt and shame and inadequacy, because I don't know, I just think of like my friends and our group that do like Bible study and book study and things like that together. That like a lot of it is for us to constantly be trying to check ourselves and be aware and improving and things so like is part of it because so many women like there are so many podcasts for like women how to be better, and wives how to be better wives, how to be better mothers, and like is it because we're in that space already, like we're trying to work on that? I don't know. I think that there's still a lot of room for improvement, obviously.

Speaker 2 5:09

And then the other thing I was thinking of is you like?

Speaker 1 5:11

were you you just expand on that? Are you saying, then, that you feel like there's more men, male content? That's doing that because, like, they're catching up to, like, what women have been doing.

Speaker 2 5:20

Yeah.

Speaker 1 5:21

Interesting.

Speaker 2 5:23

But maybe that's just because I'm a woman and that's my experience and I don't know.

Speaker 1 5:27

And I think that I would say that that's probably more accurate, but I think a lot of it can. I think women are more likely to talk with each other about the things that they lack in ways that they need to get better, and I don't think that's natural for a lot of men.

Speaker 2 5:43

Okay.

Speaker 1 5:44

Right.

Speaker 2 5:46

To kind of like identify those areas of weakness.

Speaker 1 5:49

Not to like to get together and try to identify, like it's just. I don't think that's the thing that comes very natural. There is this is a herd of different podcasts that there was like an initiative in Australia they think they called it the shed initiative where a lot of they would in order to build friendships among men, they would get guys together and it was based on like, let's go do something in the shed.

Speaker 1 6:09

And like you, had to, like, find an activity so it's like, all right, let's repair this person's bike, so that while they were repairing a person's bike, that's when, like, they're doing something, so like then they can start having a conversation. And people have said like that men tend to build better relationships side to side from one another. It's supposed to facing each other, so like when you're doing something you're more willing to like hey, I'm, you know I'm struggling with this, and blah, blah, blah. I think a lot of.

Speaker 2 6:33

Which I mean just our experience in youth ministry. I would say that that's accurate with like when, if you're trying to get the guys to talk, yes, you need to be playing a game first yeah, go do something, you can't just have them sit around and know or like yeah.

Speaker 1 6:46

No no.

Speaker 2 6:47

And which they will. They'll talk about their feelings if they're like building a bonfire or like moving stuff or playing a game or whatever.

Speaker 1 6:58

Yeah, but my point, like I guess pushing back on what you're saying, is that I think I think a lot of like this, the self-help stuff for guys, I don't. I don't think it's like a catch-up thing, I think it's more of like out of desperation, because it guys still seem to not be getting what they need to be doing, because, like even these other shows that I've kind of listened to, they were saying like oh yeah, guys struggle with passivity, but then like they still don't know what to do about it, and then like giving practical steps on like this is how you battle it.

Speaker 2 7:29

I think that that's a that's a big problem and that's missing from the influencers, like Sharing of what to do.

Speaker 1 7:35

I don't like just saying influencers. This is. This also goes like pastors and small groups and Bible studies for men, like altogether Like it's not just like people on YouTube talking heads. But I think that a lot of the content that's that men consume doesn't give them practical advice On how to not be passive anymore or not, or how to lead their families or how to, you know, love their wives, love their children. So like they still struggle with how to do that Well, or like not losing their tempers or how to discipline their kids, like things like that aren't really out there Without being over-spiritualized, or or In and not like given the human formation aspect of it, so like I don't.

Speaker 1 8:12

So I think like we were seeing more of the content out there now, because I think wives are still seeing their husbands Not living up to it. And then I think now there's a big like pushback, like we said before, of like husbands and Fathers feeling like, well, we have all this pressure. This is unfair. There's no respect for husbands, because like it just means, like it just seems like we have to do all this other stuff.

Speaker 2 8:32

So that's where I think the state of things are yeah, but I guess my point was that, like women have noticed that that was a thing right and that they've, even within themselves, have noticed that there are things that they need to do. So they've already been Writing books and reading blogs and listening to YouTube Like listening to podcasts and YouTube videos about that stuff and like I don't know, are there more tangible things for women to do, like I like I feel like I've read a lot of stuff that's like here's how to help be better wife, mother, homemaker, work life balance, like all that stuff. Like I think that they're. I don't know. Is there just more content out there for women Working on it?

Speaker 1 9:22

So you think that there's content out there for women that say this is how you could be a better wife.

Speaker 2 9:28

Absolutely really yes, I can go to the bookshelf and give you five books about it.

Speaker 1 9:34

Interesting. What do they tell you?

Speaker 2 9:37

I feel put on the spot.

Speaker 1 9:38

It's great because I feel like you could say what like we, what husband needs to do.

Speaker 2 9:43

Yeah, so it's a lot of like are they written by what?

Speaker 1 9:46

written by women? There's a bias there. She gets studied.

Speaker 2 9:50

Written by men maybe, well, so, okay. So, for example, like Be healed was a book that we worked on like as a group and all the women were like yes, written by a man.

Speaker 1 10:04

I want no, like what, but like, I guess, like that's not that I thought that was what you're asking. No more of like, no more of. Is there content out there?

Speaker 2 10:15

So like yeah, invite.

Speaker 1 10:17

So I think no, no no, is there content out there that says how to be a? So like what we we've talked about before?

Speaker 2 10:23

and like I'm looking up at my bookshelf so we've talked about before is like how?

Speaker 1 10:26

to how to be a good husband, how to be a good father, like we've talked about, if you just five. We've talked about masculinity, like, and this is something we've had, we've discussed with with each other, and I have my certain views on how I need to live that out, and it's the same kind of advice that I give to young men. Do you think there's advice? There's? Has it. Is there stuff out there for women to be like? This is how, like how the counterpart of that, like this is how you be, this is how you could be a good.

Speaker 1 10:51

Because, like, the push back we got on YouTube was like what's, yeah, what's the accountability look like for the women in Out of self-protection. The men are saying that because they feel like if I put all, oh, my eggs in this basket and it's not rest and I don't get anything in return, like then I'm sacrificing for nothing. So, like, what's my wife have to live up to to live to, you know, so that I, like I'm giving my, I'm dying on the cross for my wife, what does it look like for her to submit, like it did back to that idea. But like that's kind of what they're saying and like, do you think that there's stuff out there that kind of talks about that.

Speaker 1 11:25

Yes, okay and like what's the advice that they give?

Speaker 2 11:29

I guess was my so, gosh, I have to think of like I wish I could go to a book.

Speaker 2 11:33

I don't have this rolodex like you do in your brain of like Said this and then this author said that and they are related. I don't I don't have that in my brain but, like sorry, I I'm thinking of the book present over perfect, the podcast, abiding together. Like I know that messy family and messy parenting I forget which one they are called right now I think it's messy family talk a lot about the husband and wife dynamic and how a wife and how a mother can be effective in their home and be they like I've def. I definitely know that. I'm trying to think of some others that I can see titles of, but the it's fine.

Speaker 1 12:13

It's fine, you don't have to try so. So my question was sure I could.

Speaker 2 12:17

I could give you books that like We've we've done to go over that?

Speaker 1 12:21

have and have they ever addressed the idea of shame? Absolutely okay, this the same way that, like brain, a brown talks about it.

Speaker 2 12:28

Um, I Think closely okay.

Speaker 1 12:33

Yeah interesting, cuz like you can't, you don't have the book in front of you. I would want to push back on that point, cuz like I don't feel, like I've heard, cuz like it. Maybe it's just like I don't run and I don't.

Speaker 2 12:44

Run in these female circles.

Speaker 1 12:49

Like no, but maybe because, like, the girls are more focused on that. But like the idea of, of, like word of the innocent shame, and then so I they do. They talk about shame in it, and then you talk about how to address your husband in that sense.

Speaker 2 13:02

It would make the bulls Husband, okay. No, but like addressing your own shame, yes.

Speaker 1 13:07

Oh yeah, of course it's all about you, no, I guess.

Navigating Vulnerability in Marriage

Speaker 2 13:10

But I guess isn't that the point though, that like no, right that.

Speaker 1 13:14

So like I guess that's my point of like, is there stuff out there of like how to be a how to address your husband shame. Like how to be a wife that can like help, like you, you who can live out like the marriage that we've lived out so far, and not like that because we're like a perfect couple, but in the sense of like.

Speaker 1 13:33

Well, right, cuz like we were in a place where we were very it was. It was a big mess and I was not living up to my Like my calling as a husband and father. You helped elevate me to that point through the way you love me, and Are there Things out there that you've encountered or like that you've heard about that? Help women do that, and one of the ways that you have to go about that is navigating that your husband doesn't feel Worthy Within his masculinity and you have to so like you can't just say like you need to be, like there's, there's advice out there, like if men were just more masculine than women, be more feminine, and that's just a whole bunch of garbage, because a lot of things that like and we're gonna go into this in the videos, this will make sense in a little bit but like part of the issue I've I've Thought through of I don't know if this is true is that Men feel a certain lack in their masculinity.

Speaker 1 14:26

Their wife can't bring that out of them. I think that's something that they have to work on the road. They have to be given to it by other men. But I do think their wife can help them address it. And I'll address that shame of like I'm not man enough, I'm not living up to my, my Abilities as husband, as father, and I don't think there's advice out there. Like women, this is how you could do it. Is that accurate? Like, obviously you can't read every book in the world, but like, from what?

Speaker 2 14:46

things you've gone through like yeah, I just didn't feel like that was the original question.

Speaker 1 14:50

I changed it. So I'm right.

Speaker 2 14:54

No, I changed it because I wasn't able to articulate it okay until now okay, because I felt like you're asking, like the guys feel like they're being targeted. Yes to like change and my point was like I feel like women have felt that pressure and there are things for them.

Speaker 1 15:09

No, so I guess in my question should have been worded as like all right, so guys are targeted to feel like they should change. Is there a counterpoint? So let to the like all right, what wives? This is how you can help your husband. Okay, not like wives is how you should change.

Speaker 2 15:22

I mean, but like, is there stuff to for husbands to help their wives? No, we should be writing it. Why?

Speaker 1 15:27

don't we do no like right, so like this, I guess my point being like Okay.

Speaker 2 15:31

So the big void is that there's there's a space missing for the spouse To help their, to help the spouse, to help their spouse live up to their Potential as their role as husband or as their wife, yeah, yeah so there's there's not stuff for the wives to help Call up their husbands like no, not, not call up because like again that that goes into like pointing the things out.

Speaker 1 15:55

Okay, people just like that's not what I mean by call it, but more of like are your husband knows what his mission is, he knows what he should be doing yeah, but he's not great at it. How you? How should a wife navigate that?

Speaker 2 16:07

Okay.

Speaker 1 16:10

And then like wise, like as a husband, like you're, how should you support your wife in whatever? She's trying to improve in okay, because I think that that's something that, like I yeah, okay, I see that okay, because we fought over this before, not this discussion, but like in what we're gonna go into a little yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, like how it was being done right.

Speaker 1 16:27

So I feel like a good lens to look at this through this idea of like. How can also? We took a time off 17 minutes. You're welcome everyone, so so the Bander's just trying to understand each other, so the so I think, looking at this idea of like. So we, we put a lot on the husbands, which I think rightfully so, things should be put on the husbands, but then so what is the wife's responsibility, though, in the middle of that, in some, in supporting him with his.

Speaker 1 16:56

Yes, in supporting in and just like load, I Think I think the wife's responsibility in thinking about helping him grow, helping him untangle hey, helping him like this, you know what I mean, because I don't want to say like helping him grow, because like that's you can't, because there's things like you're not Gonna help me be better, a better man, certain things, but like there's certain things you can do to make sure that I Feel affirmed okay, yeah that makes sense.

Speaker 1 17:27

Okay, so, in order to unpack this more and hopefully make more sense, if I, if this doesn't make sense at the end of it, I'm sorry everyone I'm deleting it come back next week?

Speaker 2 17:36

No, it's just leading it All right.

Speaker 1 17:38

so I think that Whatever you think of Brennan Brown I'm sorry for you know whatever you think of her Politically, I really don't.

Speaker 2 17:48

We're gonna focus on her research.

Speaker 1 17:50

I, I don't care what you think. No, because I think that this message is very important. It's it's very, it's very simple. It's not very, it may not seem very deep, but it's worth considering because it can allow for like we've talked about this in other episodes of, like common language in Navigating together.

Speaker 1 18:10

So the I try to do a few timestamps. If I messed up the timestamps I'm sorry You're gonna see me clicking around, but the the idea of shame, I Think is very important to understand, I think. I think it sheds light on a lot of different things that people can struggle with within their marriage. So we'll just play through things and then talk about it.

Speaker 3 18:33

Certainty. It fuels our daily lives and I've come to the belief this is my 12th year doing this research that Vulnerability is our most accurate measurement of courage To be vulnerable, to let ourselves be seen to be honest.

Speaker 1 18:54

One of the weird things that's happened is after Okay, that was the first thing I wanted to share, because there's also been movements out there saying to husbands that they should never be vulnerable with their wives because their wives will no longer respect them, and I think that is a very dangerous Recommendation for men, and on two fronts. One, I think it's dangerous because men should feel Like their wife is someone they can confide in. I do believe my wife is my best friend. I do believe that she, she, can get and support me in my most vulnerable times. So I think it's dangerous on that end and I think it's also dangerous. It could also be dangerous because then women can feel like no, my husband should be vulnerable all the time, and so, like I think there's an interesting balance there, like I, I, but I do think the idea of vulnerability and Positive yeah right in labeling as courage, because also, like, vulnerability is not Just sharing every single struggle you have, so like that's like the pendulum could swing up, men just being like, no, I'll never be vulnerable.

Speaker 1 19:52

Or why is being like, oh, tell me everything, every single weakness, every little thing that bothers you. And then your husband seems like he's incapable of Handling himself because he's constantly telling you about all the things that are hard Sure.

Speaker 2 20:03

Yeah, because all the things are hard. I so, listening to that, the image that came to my head we did, we helped. We're on a team that facilitated a pre-kina workshop yesterday at our parish and One of the things that we did at the end of the evening was spend time in adoration and priests offered to hear confessions and To see the male fiance's stand up to go to confession.

Speaker 1 20:36

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 20:37

I was just like yes, that is manly right there, but also like so vulnerable.

Speaker 2 20:43

Yeah to stand up in front of a crowd, to move from your spot in adoration, to clearly go to the confession line, to wait your turn, to then go and tell your sins, like to confess your sins and ask for mercy and repentance, like what is more vulnerable than the sacrament of penance, the sacrament of confession, and and then also what is more brave To go do and like oh, I was just like that is so manly and I don't know. I feel like is there something there that women should encourage that like they encourage humility, they encourage vulnerability? I guess, like in its rightful place, right.

Speaker 2 21:25

Like there's there's a time when, like losing, losing your cool, is just not Appropriate right so it's like yes, please be vulnerable and share yourself, because I want to know who you are. If you're not vulnerable, then I don't really know you. I don't know that was that was interesting.

Speaker 1 21:43

It's interesting because I don't Um and this happened a lot with the last episode, when we were talking about Red Pill, man's Fear stuff, a lot of the women were like I didn't know this existed, mm-hmm. So I feel like even what I'm saying I don't know if you have a box for it of the vulnerability with, with wives, because, like I Agree with you, that was very manly that they went to confession, but I think that's not. The argument isn't that men shouldn't be vulnerable? Is that they shouldn't be vulnerable with their wives? Mm-hmm, and I feel like that's something that.

Speaker 2 22:14

But you don't think even that act was vulnerable with their Future wife. No like to be able to stand up and say I have sins, I have to go confess, instead of like putting on this like perfect maybe I don't know what they're like, so I like they could be like.

Speaker 1 22:32

Yeah, I apologize to people all the time. Right, like I don't know, like, or they could be like. Yeah, I pray to God and okay, like.

Speaker 1 22:37

I? I don't think so. I think, specifically, being vulnerable with someone who Should later trust you with things, hmm, is it is? It is very different than like going to tell a stranger something, even if it's like a like, and that the whole advice, the whole point of the advice of not being vulnerable with your wife is so. That is because she's gonna think of you as less of a leader If you're constantly telling her the things that are wrong with you.

Speaker 2 22:59

Mm-hmm, like showing the chinks in your armor.

Speaker 1 23:02

Yes, and that's that is so, like when you and I think that's that's a Across a lot of guys carry and I don't think a lot of them even even would articulate that they carry that but they Want to be the perfect husband, they want to be the perfect father, and then if they constantly talk about how hard it is for them to do that with, with the person they're trying to do it for, I think they feel like they will become less than, or be seen less than, and I don't know if every wife has the the capacity to be like no, no, it's okay. Like I still love you, I still trust you.

Speaker 1 23:33

Hmm do you have a counterpoint to that?

Speaker 2 23:36

like okay, so going on the the image of like chinks in your armor, but I'm like okay, well, the only way that those happen are by you going into battle so like hmm, I don't know, like share that with me.

Speaker 2 23:49

Like how did you get those Battle wounds? Like how did how did that, how did that come about? And so that I can like see, like hard things are only hard if they're hard. So like if For a woman to appreciate the effort that it takes for the man to be the man, she has to know about that, like she has to know what you're doing. Okay and how hard it is for her to appreciate that it's hard. So I think in, like I think, in being vulnerable, you start to yeah, appreciate.

Speaker 1 24:25

No, you're not wrong. Okay, yeah, this is. This is interesting. So there's a part and then we're gonna get to it later. No, well, let's side sidebar this. We're gonna come back to the side of our table. It is gonna come.

Speaker 2 24:37

We're gonna come back to it, okay. This is no, this is really good, what happens when you don't tell me what we're gonna do?

Speaker 1 24:41

No, this is amazing. This is because, like it's happening in real time, people can see it. This is great. Next part that I'm gonna go up to this is so good. That was such a good comment. I know you don't doesn't feel like it, cuz I didn't respond very.

Speaker 2 24:57

I feel very vulnerable.

Speaker 1 24:59

So I think this is a good segue actually, if we, if I, if I'm in the right part in the talk.

Speaker 3 25:06

We see pointing and laughing 99% of the time is who us Shame drives. Two big tapes never good enough, and If you can talk it out of that one, who do you think you are? The thing to understand about shame is it's not guilt. Shame is a focus on self guilt as a focus on behavior. Shame is I am bad, guilt as I did something bad. How many of you, if you did something that was hurtful to me, would be willing to say I'm sorry, I made a mistake? How many of you would be willing to say that Guilt, I'm sorry I made a mistake? Shame I'm sorry I am a mistake. There is a huge difference between shame and guilt, and here's what you need to know. Shame is highly, highly correlated with addiction, depression, violence, aggression, bullying, suicide, eating disorders and here's what you even need to know more guilt, inversely correlated with those things. The ability to hold something we've done or fail to do up against who we want to be is incredibly adaptive. It's uncomfortable, but it's adaptive.

Speaker 1 26:26

All right, I want to pause there, so with, I'm gonna kick this part out. It's not uploading, all right, so I'm gonna. I want to so pause what we just talked about, because we're gonna get. We're gonna get back to that about Husbands and wives talking to each other. We're gonna get back to that.

Speaker 1 26:41

But for now, the idea of guilt and shame, I think, is very important and it sheds a lot of light into this conversation. Because if you're trying, if a Husband is trying to become a better husband and father, but does not believe that he's intrinsically good, right, and that every time he messes up, he does not feel guilt, but he feels shame instead and feels like I am not good enough, I'm not a good enough father, I am not a good enough husband for them. They deserve better than me. That makes the conversations very different. Right, like, and that means, and that makes anything that you might suggest, like we talked about, like I don't think you nag. That's within our relationship. I don't think you nag, but like. So you keep pointing things out that you wish I could do. Don't elicit shame for me, they elicit guilt.

Speaker 1 27:25

Oh my gosh, shoot. I know I do that because, like I cuz, like she said, I can hold up the idea, like I want to be this kind of father, want to be this kind of husband, and if I fall short of that and you're able to point that out To me, it's easy. That's easy, I go, that's great. I have someone who's keeping me accountable, who's able to hold these things out for me, and I don't feel less than I feel like, okay, I know I could do these things. So I feel like you're elevating me that way. But if I'm feeling shame, if I, if I felt shame every time you brought something up, because, like I saw, every time he points something out as being the husband, father, she deserves, I'm not the one that I'm not, and she notices.

Speaker 1 27:56

And she notices it and she's pointing it out to me, so she sees it too and, like all the kids see it too and all that starts and I start feeling shame about that. Like that makes our conversations very, very different. So even the whole Ephesians 5 debacle that we've been it's been going on on all the different medias. I think this idea of guilt and shame within a relationship is very key to that, because if a husband feels like I Need to be the head of this household and then every time you point something out to me, you're, it's not, like it's not, you're, you're not. I'm trying to elevate me in any way to be that husband like that head leader. You're pointing out the reasons why I'm not good enough to be that leader like it. Just it changes everything completely.

Speaker 2 28:35

It's like a different perspective, so the the wife could be saying the same thing, mm-hmm, but it's depending on how it's received.

Speaker 1 28:44

Yes, and it's not a tone thing Like it's, there's an internal yeah.

Speaker 2 28:50

Okay, but I think that there can be. I think that how you deliver the message, though, and what you say and what word choices you have, could absolutely yes, like another relationship.

Speaker 1 29:00

Yes, yes, like so we just look at the data here, we look at the objective data in this house and, like you tell me like, okay, you didn't pick this up. Oh, you're right, I didn't Sorry.

Navigating Shame and Vulnerability in Marriage

Speaker 2 29:10

I'm sorry but I don't think that, that okay, I don't think that was true at the beginning of our relationship. No and I don't think that that's true for all relationships. So so I do think that you know you're asking about, like practical things for wives to do.

Speaker 2 29:26

Mm-hmm if this is an issue in their marriage, if this seems to be an issue, maybe, like, maybe it hasn't actually been called this before, but you feel like you're coming up against the wall every time this topic comes up or this, and yeah, like the headship comes up, or anytime. Just anytime he feels like he's falling short right, yeah, but he might not say that because you're saying it's hard for them to be vulnerable, so she might not know that like his defense mechanism might be anger in or, like you know.

Speaker 1 29:59

I know, I know.

Speaker 2 30:00

So, but she wouldn't know that he thinks he's falling short.

Speaker 1 30:03

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 30:03

So we're talking about a couple that hasn't had these yeah.

Speaker 1 30:07

Duke out battles, conversations like we have can you imagine, though, like being in this, I guess, you imagine.

Speaker 2 30:14

Yes, no, monica, seven years ago. Well like so.

Speaker 1 30:19

No, I remember being there. But like, imagine like you, because, like, all right, when you, when you're, when you're a guy at least From my experience like you don't really need to be told the things you're doing wrong, like you know when you're falling short. I knew the areas I was falling short in. I didn't think I could be better. So I felt like whenever I felt short of those things, like it was like dang it, renzo, like why are you this way? And then you bringing things up to me was just like man, she sees it too. Why am I this way? And it just like I didn't feel good about who I was, because, yeah, I'm just this broken person. And the way I tried to hide that was by getting angry about the thing that you were bringing up and then pushing back on that. I'm like no, that's actually like don't in an. Or if, like it's something really wasn't my fault, I'll be like don't put that on me. That wasn't one of my mess ups. I was one of your mess of like. Our arguments were very Unhappy.

Speaker 2 31:12

Yeah, or it'd be some rationalization of why it was okay and that was partially for you to be like it's okay, you're not broken, like you had your reasons for not, you know, and that was another defense mechanism. Or just like Just frustration, for like you see all Of my mess and you don't see the good things, like you feel like the scales are Swayed in one direction.

Speaker 2 31:37

Yeah in one direction. So yeah, so like you might not be at that point where and this could go both ways but like we're talking about husbands being on the receiving end, so like they're not there, for you for them to say, like I just don't feel like I add up Mm-hmm and the way that that might manifest itself is digging your heels in, being defensive, being angry, retreating and like doing less, because the more I do, the more I mess up, so I'm gonna do less, um, and, and those are just.

Speaker 2 32:15

those are Manifestations of something deeper and different than what they look like keep going. Shameless guilt.

Speaker 1 32:24

Yes, this next part's very good Because now she's gonna do. She's gonna differentiate Um with how shame and guilt are are experienced by men and women, because this is from 15 years ago, so she can do that.

Speaker 3 32:42

The other thing you need to know about shame is it's absolutely organized by gender. If shame washes over me and washes over chris, it's gonna feel the same. Everyone's being in here knows the warm wash of shame. We're pretty sure that the only people who don't experience shame are people who have no capacity for connection or empathy, which means I have a little shame. No, I'm a sociopath, so I would opt for. Yes, you have a little shame. Shame feels the same for men and women, but it's organized by gender. For women, the best example I can give you is Anjali the commercial. I can put the wash on the line, pack the lunches, hand out the kisses and be work at five to nine. I can bring home the bacon fried up in the pan and never let you forget you're a man. For women, shame is do it all, do it perfectly and never let them see you sweat. I know how much perfume that commercial sold, but I guarantee you it moved a lot of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds.

Speaker 1 33:55

So just to pause here, I feel like this is where, like we were talking about with the women's content right, I feel like a lot of the women's content addresses that right and like you're in your shame and you're in your worthiness as a daughter of God and just even like how to balance all those things together.

Speaker 2 34:11

Yes.

Speaker 1 34:11

Right, so there's a lot of that.

Speaker 2 34:13

Yes, which I don't think that there's as much for men.

Speaker 1 34:16

I don't think there's a counterpart to it. She's gonna talk about what the counterpart to it is, but I don't think there's any kind of, and I thought that was what your question was asking at the beginning.

Speaker 2 34:25

So I feel like there's a lot of that for women.

Speaker 1 34:26

Yes, yes, so yeah, and I don't think there's well so yeah, so I don't think so addressing that there's a lot of that for women. I don't think there's a counterpart, not counterpart, a like a men. If your wife is struggling with these things, this is how you can help her in her shame, right.

Speaker 1 34:42

And then I don't think there's content for men that supports them if they experience shame, and I don't think there's a content for women that can support their husbands in that. Agreed. But like I see you nodding I saw you at that corner of my eye nodding at the things she's saying, like you've experienced this and gone through that.

Speaker 3 34:59

Shame for women is this web of unattainable, conflicting, competing expectations about who we're supposed to be, and it's a straight jacket For men. Shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one. Do not be perceived as what Weak. I did not interview men for the first four years of my study and it wasn't until a man looked at me one day after a book signing and said I love what you have to say about shame. I'm curious why you didn't mention men. And I said I don't study men. And he said that's convenient. And I said why? And he said because you say to reach out, tell our story, be vulnerable. But you see those books you just signed for my wife and my three daughters. I said yeah, they'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down. When we reach out and be vulnerable, we get the shit.

Speaker 1 36:07

I guess stop it in time.

Speaker 2 36:08

Well, keep going now. You already said it.

Speaker 3 36:11

Yeah, out of us. And don't tell me it's from the guys and the coaches and the dads, because the women in my life are harder on me than anyone else.

Speaker 1 36:25

So, with what she just said in mind, back to your thing about how wives can support their husbands and be vulnerable, and you said the comment of like you want to hear about the chinks in my armor and like how I got them? The idea that a man has to be strong is very, I think it's ingrained in us in this moment. It's ingrained in our culture, and if we see any vulnerability as weakness, like, we will never do that. I even struggle with that, I know I think I do. I'm a pretty open person, though, but it's not easy to do those things. So, like if your husband is struggling, there's I don't think that it's normal for husbands to open up, because opening up seems weak. So like men won't even open up to one another because it seems weak. So like if they're doing a thing together, though, and they're just having a conversation, like, I'm not opening up, I'm just talking.

Speaker 1 37:19

Yeah, interesting distinction, like I, but like I think it's dumb Like you're obviously opening up.

Speaker 1 37:26

And like I and I've, I guess, like the reason I'm more vulnerable too is because I've, like I've talked to my basketball teams when I've coached them right, and I've said to them like you need to learn to be vulnerable with one another because, like I've seen all of you cry after winning a championship game and like then you're hugging and kissing each other like nothing but like and like that's normal, but then if you have, if you have a struggle, you're afraid to bring it up. Like that's. It's not okay if we can only be celebrated like that with one another in the good things and we can't do that in the with the harder things. So I'm perfectly comfortable with vulnerability, but I don't think that that's a natural thing that guys will get, because they're they're they're trained not to do that, which I think you need to be like. You can't be on the battlefield and thinking about how I'm hurt, right, like I've said it to our kids, I actually there's a, there's a. I saw it today on Instagram actually. So like there was a.

Speaker 1 38:17

One of the UFC fight nights was last night and it was in Mexico, and in one of the one of the fighters there's a clip of him. Like his both eyes are super swollen after after a round and he's sitting in the corner and his coaches are talking in Spanish and when somebody's translating he's like you don't need your eyes, you don't need your eyes, just listen. You know, put your hands up and he's just trying to coach him. But like you don't need your eyes, you just got to go and like I coach our kids like that too. So like I know what that's like and I was pushed like that. But like so you're trained to. Like you just got to go, you got to be able to push, no matter what. Like you get hit in the battlefield, like I tell our kids they're just like oh, my hands hurt. Like is that going to matter when you're in a fight?

Speaker 1 38:54

No, you got to keep going so like so, but so like you're trained on them, that's great. But then they're not like but emotionally you can't do that. Like physically you can, but like emotionally we're not made to do that. Humans aren't made to just keep going and push through and pack it down. But because we're not giving that counterbalance or counter examples, like we think that we have to always be that strong so to be vulnerable seems so to be like physically strong and emotionally strong. Yes, and just be strong all around.

Speaker 1 39:20

Like that's I am strong if I am, I am masculine if I am strong. So if.

Speaker 1 39:25

I am then vulnerable and I see that as weakness and it is a feminine thing too and an unmasculine thing to share my struggles with you. So I can't tell you my chinks in my armor and I can't tell you the battles I've been fighting. You should only see me as a on my white horse that comes home and like I did all the things. And I can do all the things at home too and I can lead and I can be the husband and father you deserve, because if I fall down that I can feel shame from that.

Speaker 2 39:53

Because your identity is wrapped up in-.

Speaker 1 39:57

In the being the white knight that comes. Purple brown knight, sorry, the brown knight that comes in on his peruvian stallion. I come in by my llama.

Speaker 2 40:06

I don't think it's a white knight, I think it's a white horse. I know but that's why I came in on my llama.

Speaker 1 40:11

His name is Pedro, but so but like, yes, like Deflection.

Speaker 2 40:20

No, too vulnerable.

Speaker 1 40:21

I have to make a joke now. I kind of make a joke.

Speaker 2 40:25

No. Another thing, ladies, we can pick up on.

Speaker 1 40:28

But accurate, but like, yes, like the identity and I've, but I like I remember hearing that for the first time. I mean she also said it in the different talk.

Speaker 2 40:38

Yes, and you sent it to me.

Speaker 1 40:40

And you were like what? I don't believe this. I was like you do. I remember it not being received well.

Speaker 2 40:50

It did not go.

Speaker 1 40:50

The way you thought it was going to go. No, I thought you would be like oh no, I love you so much. I would love it if you were vulnerable and you were like what are you talking about? I don't do that.

Speaker 2 41:00

Way to make it about you, Monica.

Speaker 1 41:02

Yes, exactly, but like okay, that's a great point.

Speaker 2 41:04

I'm trying to be vulnerable here.

Speaker 1 41:06

That's a great point, cause I think that happens for a lot of men too.

Speaker 2 41:08

I remember the scene here.

Speaker 1 41:11

It was at this table, it was just a different house. No, but I think that happens for men too. Like, if they share how they feel, it can then be like what you just shared made me feel this way, and then it becomes they just have to apologize, or you shouldn't have felt that way, because yes, and so now the guy feels like I just have to apologize.

Speaker 1 41:27

So that's why a lot of guys just feel like I just have to be on my white Lama thing, my white animal, just like I always say up here, and I can never share how I feel and never share any weakness, so like. So, therefore, let me at least tell you how I wish things would run around the house, right, like let me be the head of the house and just tell how things I want happen, but I'll never share anything deeper and like that's. I think that's a lot of men are seeking to at least have a thing where they can put their stamp on, like this is what I created, and then just be happy to look at it and like, okay, that's fine.

Speaker 1 42:01

Like this is where our family is, and I think there's deeper relationship that Jesus requires of us in our marriage. That, I think, requires vulnerability and it requires us to not be afraid of showing our opening up to our beloved.

Speaker 2 42:15

Yes. So one practical tip for women is to not correct your husband's vulnerability Like to receive it and to not like redirect it and say that should have been put there, or to like quantify it.

Speaker 1 42:30

Yes, because I didn't know how to get to like I wanted to. I knew if I showed you the video and said we're talking about this, you know where to get to, you know what to start saying, but I didn't know if they would know what you're talking about. But like now that we've gotten to this point, like I think now you could give advice, because I remember us going through this yes. Yes, so that's a good point. Yes so yeah, so do not Point number one.

Speaker 2 42:51

Point number one, tip number one what do you mean?

Speaker 1 42:52

don't redirect the vulnerability.

Speaker 2 42:55

So to try to like, but you're saying that you're worried or anxious or weak in like you're, you're sharing that you feel weak or inadequate in a certain area and you're like, and for the wife to be like, oh no, no, that like it's really more this, because we're putting it in our feminine box and you're coming from your masculine box. So yeah, I'm trying to give an example.

Speaker 1 43:22

You can use me.

Speaker 2 43:24

Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1 43:26

You can use me however you see fit, sorry.

Speaker 2 43:31

I was gonna make up a hypothetical, real, real scenario. I can't think of one, but like there were so many times where I was trying to interpret, or like I thought I understood what you meant and you'd be talking about something with work, for example, maybe like we have, time.

Speaker 1 43:50

Can you edit this? I can edit all of this. I'm gonna keep this.

Speaker 2 43:53

I'm trying to think of like a real thing that we discussed. Okay, this is hypothetical.

Speaker 1 43:59

Okay.

Speaker 2 44:00

So let's say, husband starts talking about stress, about finances and yeah, cause we have no stress there. Sorry, our car broke down yesterday and, just like okay, sharing stress about finances and I'm worried about this and the wife starts to try to come up.

Supporting Vulnerability in Relationships

Speaker 1 44:23

What if I remember this? So maybe this is kind of related to your hypothetical Hopefully, if that's. But there was times not currently, where I am, cause I'm very happy where I work but I remember there was times where, like I would be working in a position that I wish I could, like, I wish I was in a higher position, I wish I made more, and I remember feeling like and trying to express to you how, like I just wish I either did better in high school or college or being like I wish I could move to a different position, I wish I had more experience here, and I remember bringing those things up to you. How would you say that should not be handled?

Speaker 2 44:57

One. It should not be handled in trying to come up with ways for that to happen Like, okay, well then, how about you like take a class, or you work on a different certification, or you you know, like it's okay you could work more hours and like trying to fix the problem, because part of that was actually you trying to express that you feel inadequate at that moment.

Speaker 2 45:20

And what I'm hearing is that you're stressed about work and like there is something deeper that is trying to be unveiled and if we, as women, just jump to the like, trying to come up with a solution or a way, it's almost like you're proving my point because you think you can fix the problem and I'm trying to share about like something deeper about myself right now?

Speaker 1 45:49

Yeah, and I remember like wanting to just be affirmed and like silly, but just like it's okay if we don't make a lot of money right now, like just something simple, like that could have been like all right, yes, because like the things you and I don't remember exactly how this I remember expressing it. I don't remember how it was, how it went, but I know that, like hearing things like well, you know, like can you start looking at other jobs? Like you know, we go back for certifications, things like that. I already thought of those things.

Speaker 2 46:17

Right, of course you did, and I already, like, you know, but it's so like of course you did, but that wasn't communicated, and so I felt like, oh, you're stuck in this spiral, so let me try to shine light on your on your woe was me, you know, on your confusion or what have you, and it was like like duh.

Speaker 2 46:41

You know, like duh, the budget needs to be fixed and like I need to be tighter on grocery shopping, like all those things. But like, in that sharing, we have to first like receive and just let them let our husbands talk and share and us, just one of the. Are you gonna do the image that she does about the whole?

Speaker 1 47:07

No, she doesn't do this one.

Speaker 2 47:08

Okay, so one of the images that Brene Brown talks about in shame, in when somebody is being vulnerable with you, is to just sit in their hole with them and not try to help them climb out not try to like come up with.

Speaker 2 47:22

Well, like if you just climb up this bank or I'll hoist you up but you're just to sit in it first with them is so important because that's where relation building and like shame is allowed to be shared and vulnerability is allowed to be shared, because I'm just gonna sit and receive, I'm not gonna try to correct or fix, because that only affirms your shame and digs you deeper into that hole of shame. And here I am high up on the outside, like how's it going down there? I can tell you how to not go in the hole again and I like that was when we learned about that that was something that we actually set out loud to one another sometimes. So you were you or I would be like I just need you to sit in the shame with me right now. I need you to sit in the hole with me.

Speaker 1 48:08

So I'm gonna give a couple more examples and then I'm gonna ask a question at the end.

Nurturing Emotional Communication in Relationships

Speaker 1 48:12

I may forget about the question, but I'm gonna try to ask it later. But so I know I remember another thing that we struggled with was that my this was before I had a diagnosed ADHD, so I thought that I just had a lot of depression issues. I remember and it's amazing what the difference diagnosis helped with right being able to use words for that. But so I thought I would go through bouts of depression and I remember not being able to fully express to you how it felt, because I remember there was times when I'd be like I'm feeling this way and I felt like you would just look at me like what do you want me to do with that? And I just felt like I can't share more. So like it would be like I remember like I'd give you like little breadcrumbs to see, like how are you gonna handle this little bit of vulnerability? And if you didn't handle it the way, I was like, oh so you know, nope, she's not gonna.

Speaker 2 49:05

That's it.

Speaker 1 49:06

She's not gonna see me the same, so I'm not gonna do it anymore.

Speaker 2 49:08

That's it, no more.

Speaker 1 49:09

So do you have any advice for that? For wise Cause, I feel like, for I would say like, be on the lookout for when that's happening. Cause, like you don't like, if your husband is he's sharing something with you, like it may be a super small thing, but it could be like it could be like his first step down from the law, right Like the first step off of like how is she gonna? How is she gonna?

Speaker 2 49:31

How I could think of is like Emperor's new groove. Yes, Cusco.

Speaker 1 49:36

Cusco, so like it could be his first, like let me see how this is gonna go. And if I just like little things, like yeah, like I'm feeling a little down today and you'd just be like, oh, so, like you know what is something happening at work, I'm like no, she's not gonna, she's not gonna. No, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, I was just a little rough. I'm just tired Like and I remember just turning into like no, I think I'm just tired, like I can't wait to go to sleep, whatever.

Speaker 2 49:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1 49:56

And like I would just and it sounds like a silly game, but like again, if men feel like their their identity is fixed in their strength, like to start showing a little bit of weakness is a big deal. So, like you, kind of wade through the waters with that, you don't just jump in.

Speaker 2 50:15

So this is strategy I learned from you.

Speaker 1 50:19

Oh, what did I do? You're welcome. You're three Ys, oh, five Ys, but yes, five Ys, yes.

Speaker 2 50:26

I only got to three.

Speaker 1 50:29

I love you.

Speaker 2 50:30

But I think, I think asking instead of like giving commentary, so asking the question why?

Speaker 1 50:42

root cause analysis.

Speaker 2 50:43

Root cause analysis. So like trying to trying to get, but it's more of an open ended why is more open ended than some other of the questions? And like it's less targeted at, like a certain thing that you said. So just trying to understand more and like opening up the floor for you to be able to share more. And then I think the second is and this is something that's very hard for women who like to multitask but to stop what you're doing.

Speaker 1 51:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2 51:18

Oh, that would used to hurt me, yup.

Speaker 1 51:19

It used to hurt me, because I remember that you feel like you don't have my attention.

Speaker 2 51:25

I'm distracted. I don't really care about what you're saying, because this other stuff is more important, so to stop what you're doing.

Speaker 1 51:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2 51:34

And like.

Speaker 1 51:35

I remember sharing, See, and it wasn't like big deal shares, but to me they were right.

Speaker 2 51:40

And I remember like and to your point, like their breadcrumbs though, because I like I'm laying this out there and seeing if you're like gonna come along.

Speaker 3 51:47

And if you're not gonna come?

Speaker 1 51:47

along then yeah.

Speaker 2 51:49

Fine, just keep doing what you're doing, cause it's obviously more important than me. Right, right, right, because that is shame. Yes, right.

Speaker 1 51:55

And it gets like and it's important to say like it's because we believe a lie.

Speaker 2 51:58

Yes.

Speaker 1 51:59

Right, it's not like if I can live in my identity as a son of God and know that I am good regardless of how I perform in things, then I can bring something up to you and you still wash the dishes while I talk about it and then be like, hey, can you just stop so we can talk Like and not feel like, oh my goodness, I'm gonna ask Like. But I remember feeling like that, like I'm being dramatic, and there's all these voices that are telling you that, like, what you're experiencing is not masculine.

Speaker 1 52:28

Right like you shouldn't be this upset about this. Why are you disrupting your wife about this? She's gonna see you as less than see you are less than because you need this from her.

Nurturing Emotional Intimacy in Marriage

Speaker 1 52:37

Like there's just all these talks and having to like getting past that is so difficult and then like, if you're not just and whatever you do, it confirms my bias of like oh, yeah, she really doesn't care about this, so you have to tread very lightly Right and like, and it's so weird, cause, like I'm pointing, it seems like I'm painting men as very fragile, which is like they don't want to be seen as that, but like we are emotional. All of us have emotions. You can control your emotions and you can redirect them, and you absolutely can do that, but you also desire a human connection in a way that you can't satisfy by being stoic all the time, cause you were made for love and like that's what love is, is people seeing you at your worst and loving you anyway. So my question was how can you see a husband doing that Right? Cause, like you, I'm still your husband and I still share things Are you.

Speaker 1 53:36

I still I do. I mean, I did, I did 11 years ago. I had jokes and I kept it to myself. How can you see a husband, have a husband who's being vulnerable, right, and like you feel like you have to do all these little things for him now cause he's an emotional, he seems like an emotional child, cause you have to like tread so lightly and like kind of work through these things, how can you still respect him after that? Cause that's, that's something that's a big fear of like if I show these things, how can you still respect and trust him?

Speaker 2 54:07

That's a good question.

Speaker 1 54:12

I have an answer to myself, but I want you to give me an answer.

Speaker 2 54:14

First.

Speaker 1 54:14

Unless you want me to talk and then you can jump off it.

Speaker 2 54:16

So, like I know that I'm I'm pausing a long time because I know you're asking me more practically, rather than like From the hip to shoot, it's just okay.

Speaker 2 54:26

So.

Speaker 2 54:30

So for me it was, it was like as, as we were going through this vulnerability process learning vulnerability, identifying shame or guilt that one thing for me because this was, this was a both, and we didn't really share a lot of like me, processing shame and things like that while this was happening as well, but for me it was okay.

Speaker 2 54:59

Wow. So this life thing is hard for both of us and because we're doing it together we've chosen to do it together. That like this is making us stronger as people, as individuals, but it's ultimately making us stronger as a couple, for us to really understand one another and for us to understand ourselves, so that we can communicate with the other and help them to know us better. I just saw that as like as a strength, because then we know what we're dealing with, instead of these like actors who are pretending Like at least we know who we are and where our strengths and weaknesses lie, so that when we face some really heavy stuff which some of this like some really heavy stuff happened during this like unveiling process. Then we just had a better idea of, like, who we were and who we were working with.

Speaker 2 55:58

So I think that was that was really important for me and I grew in respect for you, because I think some of it too was like these are things I already knew on the surface, so for you to acknowledge that I respected that more instead of like, do you really not see this? Like, do you really not see some of these weaknesses? Because, like, I think guys are afraid to show their weaknesses but like, and maybe not like in a strength, like physical strength way, but like your wives see some like you, you live together and you are married and you're making a family, like we see those weaknesses, but it's almost like do you not see it?

Speaker 2 56:41

Like so for you to see? It was also like oh okay, so like now we can as a family, as a couple, like we can work with that and we can grow from there, but we can't if we're not going to acknowledge it.

Speaker 2 56:57

So I think I grew in respect because you were willing to acknowledge and then I was like you filled me in on a lot of like the root of where this came from, because, again, I saw the surface. So for me to like really deeply understand, like where some of that stemmed from, whether it was like I never had that modeled for me, or like ADHD, like my brain just doesn't see that or work that way, for me to understand that, like some of the things that I did only further affirmed the lies that you were hearing, and like, oh, I, like I can make corrections because that my behavior is not reflective of what the message I want to share with you is like you know, like me saying, like going back to that work, example of like well, what if we try this, this and this is like?

Speaker 2 57:48

that was my way of being, like I believe in you, like let's do the things, but that wasn't the message you received.

Speaker 1 57:55

No right.

Speaker 2 57:56

So, like I was trying to empower you and be like let's do it, like let's spend the money and go back to school, like let's I know that you're capable, and so for me to better understand, like, what my message was actually communicating to you, okay, then I'm going to work on what and how I'm saying it, so that the deeper thing that I want to share with you and express with you is actually given and received.

Speaker 1 58:25

And I would. And the only thing I'd add to that is you've done a great and I don't know if it's because I like words of affirmation, but like you've done a great job. And you started doing a great job during all this of affirming me and saying things like I love you, I'm proud of you, I respect you, thank you for working so hard, because those things helped me. I believed you, right? Some people maybe hear words like that. I'm like, well, you know, and they tend not to believe people, but I believed you and I appreciate it every time you said that and you just being like I appreciate you. All right, just want to affirm you that you're doing a good job in this, and when that was unprompted, it wasn't even like me saying to you like hey, I'm struggling with this thing.

Speaker 1 59:08

That helped speak truth to all the lies that I was believing because, like I do and like it's one of those things, like you know God loves you, but do you feel like God loves you and like I know my wife loves me, but I don't feel like my wife loves me. So then when you start, when you start feeling that way and feeling like your wife loves you, it's a lot easier to then start being more vulnerable with her because she's still love and respects me and I'm able to share these things and she's still loving, respects me and it's just.

Navigating Masculinity and Vulnerability

Speaker 1 59:33

It's a cycle of like, it's just. It's a cycle in just the opposite direction because, like now, the biases towards she loves and respects me no matter what. And I think that's where I think with all the other Ephesians, things aside, and all the other Bible verses. I think getting to that core for couples is very important, because if you can't have those conversations, like if you haven't seen your spouse cry before, I think it's a problem and I know that's gonna, that's gonna irksome people don't care.

Speaker 2 1:00:03

You know what this reminds me of as an earlier episode that we had done. I forget the title of it, but like we were, we talked about like stoicism and what was the opposite of stoicism?

Speaker 1 1:00:13

Things I don't remember.

Speaker 2 1:00:14

I I but like and it was something about like men with chest and like oh, oh, oh, oh, yes. And you just saying getting to the core of it and how like? Like getting to the heart of it, core C-O-R meaning like the Latin for heart right. So I'm catching on.

Speaker 2 1:00:33

Thank you, Robbie I know, there's a lot of lessons around here, but that like like we need men of heart who are like strong and capable, but also like vulnerable and feel. Because if if stoicism is going to be like the way that men are going to function and then they see emotions as weak, so then they're going to see their wives as weak, because women often lead with their emotions Then this is where this big divide is going to come from and like so many misunderstandings, because you see like stoicism as the the way to be.

Speaker 2 1:01:21

but then where is that like relational building going to come? And then I also think too, like we're saying with the leaders of the family, heads of the family, that like when that notion is questioned, it's like are you calling men weak?

Speaker 1 1:01:36

Are you?

Speaker 2 1:01:36

calling them incapable because we're not, and it's like it's because they feel shame, like you're attacking an identity. Right. And instead of calling them out in places that they could feel guilty and then improve, like they feel like you're calling them out, as you are not as as like a man, when if that was the way that God intended it, then God would not have made marriage.

Speaker 2 1:01:59

Like you need one another, you need both, and and you need men of heart so that they're open to receiving the wisdom and the beauty of their wives, so that they can become better men, and then those men are going to make better women and those women are going to make better men. And like that's what marriage is, is we are constantly lifting one another higher and higher, closer and closer to heaven.

Speaker 1 1:02:23

The root word of courage, core.

Speaker 2 1:02:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:02:26

And vulnerability takes courage.

Speaker 2 1:02:28

And so, yes, vulnerability takes courage, because in order to be courageous, you have to feel fear, like in order to be brave and to do something that's brave, you have to do something that is scaring you, but you're going to do it anyway. So if you're going to ignore the fact that you're fearful or pretend that you're not, or whatever word we want to use, then you're not actually practicing the virtue of courage. Like it has to be hard, it's supposed to be hard, and you're still going to do it anyway.

Speaker 1 1:03:01

Do you have the? I'm going to see if I can find the quote from CS Lewis that I had you make into a print for me.

Speaker 2 1:03:08

I can get it on my phone. No, I'll get it here.

Speaker 1 1:03:10

Because like that to me was a big. I like the quote a lot because I think it kind of speaks to what you're saying and I think a lot of men think that strength is like kind of like Brené Brown saying like strength is a very singular thing. Oh, you sent it from a different email.

Speaker 2 1:03:25

I think I sent it from two weeks ago.

Speaker 1 1:03:27

Yeah, I think that strength is just one thing, and if they're ever seen as anything but this strength that I believe in my head, then people are going to see me as less than. But I like this quote from CS Lewis from his book. I think it's a series of talks actually, but it's from the need of chivalry. Is that it the end of chivalry? The beginning of chivalry? I got you to laugh.

Speaker 2 1:03:56

I didn't include it on the print I made for you.

Speaker 1 1:04:00

No the necessity of chivalry.

Speaker 2 1:04:01

There it is.

Speaker 1 1:04:01

I did include it actually Because you're the best, all right, how do?

Speaker 2 1:04:05

I make it, so I can see this.

Speaker 1 1:04:07

It's so big Two bets. What'd you say? What'd you say it's so what.

Speaker 2 1:04:12

You said that's so big. And then I said she said but how you fell back.

Speaker 1 1:04:17

I wasn't being attention. Okay, this is the quote. This is the quote and I love this quote because it shows. I think it speaks to what men need to return to.

Speaker 2 1:04:32

I mean the fact that it's the night and we've been. That's what we've been saying my brown night on his llama.

Speaker 1 1:04:37

On his llama, all right. So this is the quote from CS Lewis. The night is a man of blood and iron, a man familiar with a sight of smashed faces and the ragged stumps of lobbed-off limbs. He's also a demure. A demure, a demure. He is also a demure, almost a maiden, like guest in a hall, a gentle, modest, unobtrusive man. He is not a compromise or happy mean between ferocity and meekness. He is fierce to the nth degree and meek to the nth degree, cs Lewis. And that's. I love that and I want it on our wall because I think Because it's not this like moving towards the mean right, the happy medium.

Speaker 2 1:05:23

It's not like the less ferocious you are, the more meek you are. Like it doesn't. Well it's like there's a sliding scale.

Exploring Vulnerability in Relationships

Speaker 1 1:05:31

There's a thing I think it was. I think it's grown popular because the quote was on Joe Rogan but like you either want you don't want to be a gardener in a war zone, you want to be a soldier in a garden. I messed up the freaking quote. But like there's something like like you don't like the idea of like you could either be. Like you want to always be ferocious all the time and like no, you could be both.

Speaker 2 1:05:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:05:53

To the nth degree.

Speaker 2 1:05:54

Yep and it just like and having that capacity.

Speaker 1 1:05:57

Yes, makes you fully human. The capacity to be able to be both is part of your humanity, and I think so. And all this to say, I think that if men and women in their marriages are struggling with this idea of vulnerability, I think it's something they need to really lean into because it opens up a whole new dimension to their marriage, when they can be fully vulnerable and realize that they're still loved unconditionally. And I will and I'll help them, even with the relationship with God.

Speaker 2 1:06:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:06:24

Because, though they can go confession and be vulnerable there, there's so much more that God wants to stir in there.

Speaker 2 1:06:29

And recognizing. I think one thing that's important, in case it wasn't clear, is recognizing that we experience and express vulnerability differently. So just try to just watch each other carefully, to pick up on those opportunities of expressing vulnerability, receiving vulnerability and not trying to correct it, because it's not the way that we would do it.

Speaker 1 1:06:55

And this one's for the wives. This is where you can step up and you can help your husbands. Yeah, so leave a comment in the comment section on YouTube, like and subscribe, and then, if you are listening on Apple and Spotify, leave us a five star review and leave us some nice words as well. But yes, if you can go on.

Speaker 2 1:07:14

YouTube and just that's a word of affirmation, guy.

Speaker 1 1:07:16

Tell me you're proud of me on YouTube and everywhere else, and we'll see you at the next episode.