Manosphere red flags to look out for in your marriage

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SPEAKER_00 0:09

So is the term the manosphere still relevant today, specifically for Catholics? And I think today we're gonna dive into this because we are clearly experts in this because we wrote a book called Love Making, How to Talk Author The Manosphere with Your Spouse. That's actually not what this book is about. But we did write a book called Love Making. We're not experts, but we have tangoed with the manosphere and the ideas that have seeped in from the manosphere into different Catholic circles. And today we're gonna go over the red flags that you should look out for if to see if your marriage is influenced at all by any manosphere thing at all. Sound good?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

So first a little education.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I'm gonna receive this education because I'm not quite because you're a woman, you're made to receive.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

No, wait, no, wait. No.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Too much.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Too much.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Lovemaking. Continue. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Good. So I'm gonna learn a little bit from you because I feel like you have a better grasp on like more of like the terminology and the influencers and the culture and the things like that. Like and then I've heard from you. And I've seen things.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Fun fact this book that I mentioned earlier jokingly, uh, I think it came because we did a podcast episode on a topic called the marital debt that you could argue is manosphere type like topics in Catholic circles. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

It's been latched onto by Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

And um, and then the person who g did wrote the forward for a book, Emily Simpson Chapman, who is a friend and amazing art, nope, amazing author. I'm sure she draws too. I'm sure she paints as well. She's an amazing author. Um, and she interviewed us a little bit about Manosphere stuff, and it's just been something that she found us from that podcast, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

She kind of started noticing what we were up to.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Yeah, then Abbameria Press noticed that she reposted us, but then she interviewed us for her own podcast. Um, and so we've always had touch points about this. So I feel like this topic is something that we've talked about a few times in the last three years. So I think I think we're okay to talk about it now. So the idea is the manosphere still relevant? The answer is not working.

unknown 2:07

We didn't go back to the other.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

You weren't is the manosphere still elevant? I don't think it'll work there. Oh, it is. So is the manosphere still relevant? The answer is, can you read that? I made it really tiny.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

No.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

The answer is no, you can't read that.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

I can't read it.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

The answer is no. The idea of the manosphere is is very gone now. It's not like a it's not a thing as much as not being serious. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

People aren't saying manosphere.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I'm gonna switch from being sarcastic to yeah, I'm being serious now. So no, the uh manosphere isn't as relevant a thing anymore. So like when guys are searching for things, I don't think they ever search for the term manosphere. Um, but so but but the like the the manosphere as it used to be years ago is no longer a thing. Instead, like men are still searching for topics like what is the what is the meaning of life, brotherhood, like what do they do if they're struggling with that with dating or their identity. And they will search terms like trad or stoicism, mental health, and red pill, like those kind of things exist.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

I was gonna bring up red pill.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I was gonna ask about that.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Well, like that was another phrase that was used a lot when we were talking about Manosphere.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Sure, and it was used interchangeably, but like they will search those things up, but not necessarily to like be part of a community or culture, but more to like look up the the positive things you get from those, like those different communities. Like like if they're if they look up stoicism to learn about stoicism, like that's a thing that they can latch onto and learn, but it's not necessarily to be part of a stoicism group.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not to be part of like a like a clique or like a group. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

So like I think I think a lot of people that look from the outside think of manosphere as like a part of a larger community, and I don't think it exists that way anymore. The core issues that men were looking up still exist, but they like the way that it's been phrased out is like what we see out there now in the internet um is the children of the manosphere. So like no longer like the manosphere is a huge large community, the red flip community, like we're all part of this thing, we all buy into the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Like when you say children of like there were parents then, right? There were parents, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yeah, there are people leading the charge of that, and like now it's kind of like dispersed amongst the like people are now like they they they believe the red pill stuff, or sorry, they they believe that men need help with certain things. So they they target their content to help men with particular issues, and like it's no longer like, but it means you have to be part of this bigger community. It's just like no down here, like we're working on dating, we're working on finances, working on on and marriage, but like it's nothing to do with like one large community anymore. So like the influence is still out there, but it's not like you're you're being brought into buying into the thing. Um, so that is these are the different pieces of the puzzle of that you could like loop, these are the four boxes basically that you could put all of the what used to be called considered manosphere content, you can now put all the pieces into four boxes, and these are the four boxes that most of the influencers create content for. So there's dating strategies, so like how to get a wife, get a girl, there's still that that exists. There's hustle culture. So like you you could argue things like David Goggins falls into that, like the hustle culture, the intellectual stoicism. So that's like you you could argue that Jordan Peterson falls into that. And then there's also like the faith, a faith-based struggle that people have, or faith-based, faith-based like things that they search out for, that's also its own manosphere take to it. Does that make sense? Am I making sense? Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Well, like they're trying to figure out how to be a man and be a faithful man. Like, what does that look like to like live as the leader of the home, the head of the family, that kind of thing? Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

No, no, no. That's like thank you for bringing that up. So to an extent, but there's like, so when you look at these four boxes, like men are looking up, like, I I want to know how to be a man. So they might, depending on their stage of life, they might be like, I want to learn how to date and get a girl. Or they'd be like, I want to be very financially successful, and or like, or physically successful, I want to be successful, like they go into hustle culture, or they want to be like, you know what, I need to fix myself. I need to be not be so emotional, I need to be able to be like not so depressed, not so anxious. So they go into like this intellectual stoicism realm to try to fit that. Or they could be like, I want to know about the meaning of life, the existence of God. And then they pursue that more philosophical, more more philosophical, and they pursue it in a way that gives them a spiritual superiority over other men. So all of this, you think of it as like dating culture. I want to be a better man so that people will want to date me. Yes, best in all the categories. I want to hustle to the point that like I'm making so much money that there's nobody that can ever think they're better than me. I want to be so control of my emotions and my whole everything I do that like people can't ever think that like I'm I'm a beta male. Yeah. Right. And then same thing faith-wise, like I want to just do all the right faith things so that way like I am like people can believe whatever they want, but like I know what's true. I'm better than everybody else because of that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So there's problems with that. And really quickly, we'll we're just gonna I'm gonna gloss over it. So the dating strategies, the the reason this is negative, that's out there. So again, these you guys are still searching for this, they may not search for Manosphere, but they'll search for um how to date. Um, the pros of it is that it can be very empowering for a guy who just has never dated, hasn't had a girlfriend, doesn't know what to do with their lives. Unfortunately, the cons is that it's at the expense of the dignity of women because a lot of it is made to made out to be like you, if you do these things, if you check these boxes correctly, you'll be able to like manipulate a woman into liking you. And it takes away their value as a person and makes it more like of a commodity that you could attain if you do the right things.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Because it sounds like at its basis, it's not really bad to like look up like, well, how do I be a good boyfriend? Like, how do I find a date? There are some people that are just like, I just don't have experience in this or what I'm doing isn't working. So it is good to some extent to like want to be better at that. Yes, right. And then it crosses the line once you kind of get into this more manospheric explanation of how to date well, that it transfers from like, how can I be a good boyfriend so that we as a couple, like I can I can settle down and like or maybe have like lots of women like me, but or be attractive to lots of women, but then it passes over to the to the effect of like now I'm gonna like like body count and like have have many women love me or be attracted to me, or like, yeah, how can I say the right thing to get her to do what I want her to do?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Right, because it's there's a big difference between like I want to date so that I can eventually find a wife, right? Versus like I want to be able to have an elusive power over a woman so that they could all be attracted to me. And I even desire to date, but like I just want to be I want to be seen as valuable to them and desirable, right? So it could be empowering to an extent of like, yes, it's okay to find ways to be a better, be a better prospect so that like you could find your wife, but there's very no, the pendulum can switch swift. Swiss nope swing, swing, swing and switch became swift, thinking of never mind swig, take a swig. But yes, it could it could swing very quickly to making uh women a commodity, which then they're becoming objects, you're using them. So that's not positive. Um, the hustle culture, again, that's also great. Like, I have enjoyed Dave and Goggins, and I will still listen to his different things at times because I there is motivation in like seeing what a guy can do that, like, all right, look, he's pushing himself, I can push myself too. So, like the pros of that is that um a lot of men find self-improvement and and they learn to pursue success because of people like that. Um, but the problem is that there's there's a lot of men out there now that grind just for the sake of grinding. Like there's nothing out there, like, why are you grinding? Oh, it's just I gotta be the best. Like for what purpose? Like, who are you serving? Who are you loving? Like, no, I just I just gotta be the best. And like that's not the reason for grinding.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Where again, like for the pros, you don't you're like learning that you didn't have to settle for mediocrity or that like I've had this impression of myself that I'm like I've held my own self back by being like that's not possible. And you've learned that, like, well, actually, if I put in some effort and try these things that I thought I wasn't capable of doing, I am right. And so that could be again, and that could be in like the exercise culture, that could be in the side hustle culture, or that could be even like in your career. So there's there's some good to that of like don't settle and keep keep striving, keep trying to be a better version of yourself. But yeah, like you said, like for what? Why? Right. Like, is it to provide stability, is it to provide care for just like to strive for sainthood, or is it to just like to just posture to just be better than everybody?

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Right. And and I I wanted to put these as like there's pros and cons to both, because I think if we say that men shouldn't be searching for this information, and like they gain something from these areas. Again, they're not searching manosphere because it doesn't exist as a thing anymore, they're searching for particular topics that they want to grow in.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Um of the results have been influenced by manosphere.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

And I would say that a lot of the men, uh there's a lot of men out there now who are living in Catholic marriages who were influenced by the Manosphere shift. So that they might still believe some of this stuff. So I think it's important to point it out first where the pros and cons are. And then we can show where the red flags are and how you can kind of figure out in your marriage is this something that you struggle with as a husband or something your husband has been influenced by. Um, the intellectual stoicism is another one. So it's deeper, like intellectual intellectualism, like it's not a bad thing per se. Like you you're focusing beyond just the physical, like there's the the spiritual realm you're you're interested in. You want to put things in order, you want to sacrifice, you don't want your emotions to be what uh what controls you. Like a lot of the Jordan Peterson, like putting your life in order, making your bed, like those things are positive as well. Like they you don't want to just do things for the because you're being controlled by by your inner self. But the cons of that is that like then there's also a big negative view of emotion and negative view of especially in the Catholic realm, like a negative view of of anything that's that's not something that's in like that that comes from the inside and like any tears, like this is not okay. This is it could be seen as girly or just like oh this is not not true religion or whatever, which I think is important to note that like just because stoicism isn't like just because you're pursuing to not be controlled by your emotions doesn't mean you shouldn't have any emotions, but that's something again that the intellectual stoicism realm of Catholic male influencers, like they're pushing that.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

And it's good because like it is good. I kind of I think you were saying a little bit, or it's the next one, the philosophical one.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

But this one is philosophical, but the next one is as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Okay. So like it's good for us to like or men to look to like the heroes of the past or like the the to gain from them and to learn from them, be like, okay, these are like historically this is a good character trait to have and like that has proven time and time again that like I don't know, I kind of think of like men of virtue in this area, like like of yeah, like taking taking the stuff in your brain and like living that out right. And then but then if we're at the expense of emotional intelligence, then we're like trying to stuff down our our feelings, and then that like that act of repression has also proven to be it's not it's not good, unfavorable, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Uh the last one was is uh faith-based. So like the strength, the pros of being faith-based is that the the strength that we it gives the the hustle culture idea, like oh, it gives you a purpose. Like I'm I'm for service, I'm rooted in sacrifice, everything's just is is founded on Christ. Um but the the cons of a faith-based, and again, it's not I'm saying there's a con to like pursuing your faith, but like pursuing your faith in the way that the children of the man is here has pushed pursue the faith, is that there's there's a spiritual elitism to that. So, like, like you've seen things plenty on like Instagram and YouTube where there's Christian guys out there who will be like, Are you tired of being a fat priest? Are you tired of being an unfit, faithful man? Yeah, what's wrong with you? Yes, and you're like, no, and I just you and you can argue that you could ar you could argue the message at a different time, but I feel like the the there is in the male spaces, like there's this this elitism of like I have the faith correct. Um, like the the idea of like ortho bros is another thing that's thrown out there, like they're orthodox and like that this is right, you're a heretic. Like that is another um fruit of the children of the manosphere.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

And I think that they even correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like on the like on this con side that they even have these sort of standards of of like appearance and that that indicates that I've reached this level of superiority. So like they They'll say things like they're even their like wardrobe and their Yeah, yeah, I guess like the way they dress and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

I have heard it said though things like the the like the way you look on the outside points to like the virtue on the inside, which is complete nonsense. Absolute nonsense. I know such virtuous men who cannot do as many push-ups as me. And like that has nothing to do with virtue.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Like, I yes, you could build it can be built. It's for later, it's for later, it's for later, for later. All right, but just okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

But I'm correct. Yes, you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

There is that.

unknown 14:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

So let's point out the red flags. Um, I want so this is where I I really want your insight into like how this could look in a marriage. But like this is the red flags from each of the three. So like from the dating strategy, from the hustle culture, from the intellectual socialism and the from the face-based, um, and sorry, each of the four boxes. And from that, I want to point out the red flags and like how you can it affects your marriage, and then how people can kind of discern like, is this something we need to work on? So for the dating, if if you are affected by the dating strategy red flag, a red flag to look for, sorry. Yeah, is that you because this teaches to that all women only want a guy of high status and high, high like that they're achievement, achievement perceived. And then also there's this idea of like to never trust your wife that like you can't trust her because she's looking, always looking to leave.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

There's this idea of like she, if you aren't always as high status man, high value man, your wife is going to leave you. So like that don't why you laughing.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

I'm sorry. It's just seems sorry, finish and then I will so make my point.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

They see uh intimacy as transactional. So like I'm doing these things, so therefore you give me intimacy, S3X, as we call it here. It's about pyrodynamics within the relationship, not about self-gift. Um, and then these attitudes be breed suspicion amongst the spouses instead of trust. So again, like this is I don't know what you're up to. I always think that you're gonna leave me, so therefore I am pushing to be a high value man, so that you always have no chance, no, no choice but to stay with me because I'm just so high value. Um, and so this is how it impacts the relationship. But then I also want to hear what you have to say.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

So I I I was chuckling, giggling because it just seems so self-imposed that like this this issue of trust seems self-imposed because you knew that you tricked her into being with you because you use these strategies. So, like, oh my goodness, if she finds a crack in the foundation because I hid it, like then she's gonna leave for something better. And it's like, yeah, you set yourself up for that that level of distrust, but okay, so I've that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

So you like so right, and I think that at some point if you're married already and you feel like this is an issue, I think like having a husband who's willing to that you see his struggles and you see his failings, and like it's not he's not constantly trying to to show why he deserves you, which I think is very different than trying to be worthy of you. I think those are two different things, right? To a man who's try who's trying to grow in virtue because he wants to be worthy of his beloved is very different than a man who's who's trying to show like constantly trying to like peacock at his wife and show that like this is why I'm so great because I'm scared you're gonna leave me. I feel like those are two different things.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah. So do you want me to share some I like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

What do you think? Do you have anything else of that?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Like dating, like what I might see that would be a red flag.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Well, what like what yeah, what in this area. Yeah, in this area.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Um so I don't know, this might come from like the hustle side, but like one thing that I've seen a lot that can be a red flag is um for a wife or like a fiance to not have access or understanding of the financial status of their family, future family. That like if the man is like, no, I'm in control of this, like they don't have access to bank accounts or don't know like what the debt investments savings count looks like and things like that. And like on purpose, there are some people who are just like, I'm not good with money, so I just trust. And again, this is like the difference between a red flag versus, but that was the first one that came to my mind. I also think a guy who's constantly suspicious or untrusting of his wife, and not like in a it might be like I don't know how I don't explain like why were you talking to so and so so much or kind of keeping tabs on the the schedule in an unhealthy way?

SPEAKER_00 18:24

And I have a hard time giving an example of that.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

So, like I mean, again, more red flags, like I've heard of women who like if they are um communicating with a coworker of the opposite sex or like just somebody in their community, the the spouse or the fiance or the boyfriend gets very, very like defensive and you can't talk to them at all or what have you, versus like a healthy relationship of like, is there a purpose to this communication that like is like that is focused on what it should be versus um becoming more intimate and like you're sharing too much information with sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

I think also like if if there's a lot of posturing amongst other, like if the person goes to your job and they're posturing amongst your coworkers, or just something that makes them seem like to show everyone around you I'm a high value man, like that's kind of stuff that and again, I don't know if this happens in a lot of Catholic circles. I think this is more for like the audience. Like, if this is something that happens in your marriage, this is a red flag that could be influenced by the previous manosphere. Um, but you've said you've heard some of this stuff is happening.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Definitely, definitely seeping into Catholic marriages.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Okay, very good. So, next red flag, it comes from the hustle culture. Again, this glorifies dominance, equates our self-worth with money and uh treating women as trophies and building identity as status symbols. So if you see the way this can impact a marriage is that it it creates a man who neglects his family for the sake of the grind, right? So, like you're right, so like because my status and my identity is in my my grinding, I'm more likely to put all my effort into that, have my family as like a prize, a prize that like, look, because I grind so hard, I earned this thing. So like they're at home and I earned them, but I'm still gonna focus on the grind because the grind is what's what defines me again and it still seeps into like the the dating thing too of like that's also what makes you want to stay with me. So therefore I'm just gonna keep grinding.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, and I think, like you said, uh like a a boy, uh a man that puts his job ahead of his family, the needs of the emotional needs, the social needs, the just like quality time needs of his family. Um, and then I also think another red flag would be if the woman has a desire to contribute to the family, like financially in what, like either in working or just like in as a stay-at-home parent, but also having a side hustle and things like that. And then just like not, I don't want to be seen as the family that has to have a wife that works. And like again, it's like if there's a difference between a joint goal of we have a stay-at-home parent to raise the to have at home with the kids to help raise the kids, but like, but even like for example, us like like speaking together, like they wouldn't like the the wife is maybe goes to like applaud the husband at his so the success of his job. But so again, there it's like could look the same from the outside, but internal on the outside it could look sit, like it could look the same. It could be a husband that has a stay-at-home wife and they've jointly discerned that that's how their family is going, that's what's right for their family, versus like, no, you are not gonna work because that is embarrassing, because I'm supposed to show that I can provide for the family.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

And then this this and you're right, and then they see it as like an identity thing, like, therefore, is there something wrong with me because my wife has to work or because we don't have enough money. So, therefore, yes, right, versus it being this is because we've discerned this and this is the right thing to do, or whatever. This is how we want to raise our kids.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

So these are relational red flags. Like you would be the one to know if that's being flown in your relationship because of like how these conversations go.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Right. And again, these are red flags that if they they are popping up, I Hope this is a helpful tool, like this. This is coming from what used to be the manosphere.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

It's been an influence from the manosphere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Stoic intellectual red flags, over reliance and self-discipline and emotional detachment, mistaken for virtue, seeing suffering as something to endure rather than to unite to Christ. And stoicism can be can harden a man instead of opening him to grace. I'm gonna read this. Uh how it impacts marriages. A husband who hides behind stoic walls might struggle to connect emotionally with his wife or children. He risks becoming disrespected. Oh sorry, being respected by distant but distant. But distance. He risks becoming respected, but distant. Catholic marriages demand vulnerability, strength, and a love that is both steady and tender. Um this is, I think, like the trope of the 80s dad. Or I don't know. What's the dad? What's the dad that's usually like though? Like, oh, he works hard, he does everything he needs to do. He I know he loves me, but he never tells me he loves me.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, yeah. I think that's like the 70s, like those TV shows. Yeah, comes home from work with a suitcase and then sits down and the wife brings him a beer.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yep, and then that's that's uh yeah, right. And that's the um But he's there, but he's not fully present.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

His whole self is not part of the family.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Yeah, and instead of thinking like this might come just from like, oh, he's growing up and being a dad like his dad, like it could also be influenced by by the the manusphere topics because it makes it look like you are a better man if you are yes, you're 100% better man if you are self-disciplined and emotionally detached from certain things that don't that you shouldn't be attached to. I think that's right. But when it becomes like you're you're self-disciplined about everything to the extent that you can't like give up a workout to be with your kids or give up a workout to spend time with your wife, or you can't, you can't, you're so emotionally detached from everything that you can't be upset because of something that is happening within your family. Like you're like, no, that has nothing to do with me. My wife's gonna figure it out with the kids, I'm gonna go and continue to do what I'm doing. I think those are the those are the red flags that I think can creep up in marriages without realizing like this is not actually an okay thing. This is not how men always are.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

This is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

And I think like other examples of that would be like if there is something that is a circumstance happening in your life that that allows for, like that deserves stress. I, you know, I'm thinking like illness or death in the family or like job changes, or I don't know, your best friends moved away, or like something that like you're allowed to feel, like like if you're the wife and you're this is eliciting feelings from you and your husband is like not registering that whatsoever. And it's kind of like, what are you making a big deal of this? Why is this bothering you? We just have to move on, we have to move past this. That might be a sign of it. And then another thing I think that I've seen is is if the children are, as children do, like are emotional, they're having a tantrum, they're crying or what have you, and the spouse, the husband is like, we've got to cut that out quickly. Like we have to shut that down. They can't be like that. So if you kind of see that that's he's trying to bestow that or impart that on his children, that could be another red flag.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

That's a really good one. I didn't even think about that. But right, like letting your being okay with your kids crying, not just like tantrum is one thing, but even like crying if they skin their knees, crying if they lost in a game. Like I'm thinking specifically for sons, like it's okay to have emotions. So if they're uncomfortable with their kids' emotions, I think that's a red flag as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Again, and not it could be a red flag for many reasons. This, but the it could also be because they're influenced by this. And last one is the this faith-based red flag. So spiritual elitism and spiritual bypassing. Sorry, those are the two parts of the faith-based that that can be an issue. So using spiritual language in theology as an excuse to avoid human formation and growth in virtue. People who have this red flag use faith as an excuse not not meeting the needs to not meet the needs of their families. What do you think of that?

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Do you want me to read this part? Sure. So the marriage impact, a husband who hides behind spiritual elitism and spiritual bypass will avoid doing any of the necessary work in himself and around his home and consider them unnecessary because the spiritual is so much greater than the human. So I think that this kind of comes into play where you might see that, yeah, is this it almost I think it's similar-ish to the um stoicism part, but just like, yeah, when they when they are in the home, like they feel like there's a clear distinction between like the woman's roles within the home and the man's roles within the home.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Well, sure are to an extent based on like our discernment, like how we've prayed in this.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Sorry. Yeah. So like I'm like, I don't know, finish the sentence yourself.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Um that's not my role.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Right. Like it's not like a it's not like a men only do this and women only do this. But I think that you can see manosphere influence creep into the Catholic home when the response is like the woman is the one who only cooks. Now, if you have a stay-at-home parent who's the wife, then yes, based on that situation and those circumstances, she will probably be the one that cooks more frequently. But that is not like a all or nothing. And I think that in the spiritual realm, there is kind of an all or nothing of like, no, that's the wife's job. No, that's the husband's job, no, that's the man's job, no, that's the woman's job.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Keep going. I have an example. Tell me if you think it's right. So, for example, if your kids aren't listening to you, and they say they're the age of our kids, they're the oldest is 11 and 9, and they're being dis being disobedient, and I say to them, like, you're you're my child, you need to obey me. But then I never do the work to understand like why are they acting the way they're acting, like what's going on, or what are they upset about? What's down in there?

SPEAKER_01 27:21

What set this situation? Yes, like why are they acting in this way?

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Like, what's going on? And instead, I just leave it as like I don't care, you need to obey me. That's a spiritual bypass and spiritual elitism of like it doesn't matter what the issue is. Yeah, the the the scriptures say do this, so therefore you must.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And then that is a great example too of why the human formation is important because like to understand why this didn't go the way that it was supposed to go is the human formation side of it. It could have been they just didn't understand the directions weren't clear. It could have been they tried and they failed at it and like they thought they were doing what they're supposed to do, but like this like immediate reaction of like disobeying is automatically wrong. Um, were they developmentally prepared for it? Were they emotionally prepared for it? Could it have just been or could it have been straight disobedience, like they heard it, they knew what they're supposed to do, and they didn't do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Like they could not do what they wanted.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And then the question of like why, right? Like, and I think that um I think that this is clear too when actions aren't matching, like when behaviors and actions aren't matching the expectation that the man is setting. So you like have these expectations for your family, but you're like, but you don't. Like you expect that, like you expect people to listen to you the first time, and then the wife is like, yeah, but you're not maybe in like a different realm, like you're not meeting the expectations that I have for our marriage and our home and our life.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah. So those are the four red flags, or not four, those are the multiple, those are the multiple red flags within four categories that your marriage may experience if your husband has been in some way affected by the manosphere or the children of the manosphere. We should do an episode of what to do about it because all we did is bring up issues. But I think what you should do about first is begin praying about that and bringing these things to prayer because grace is ultimately what fixes and and heals. Um, it's not a it's not magic, but it's the Lord is definitely gonna can take marriages from wherever they are and heal them so that they can get to where you, where he wants them to be.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

And I also think that it's important to like affirm that if you as the man or you as the woman, like whoever is watching this video and found it and has been having this like, I just knew something wasn't quite right. Again, we at the beginning, we or this podcast, like at the beginning, we noted that like the desire at the outset was probably well intentioned, right? And was trying to find the right stuff. And then maybe you found these like self-help, like if you do this, this, and this, you'll get what you want. And and you're like, but I'm not quite getting what I thought I was gonna get. So if that might be it, so then maybe you're on the man's side and you're hearing this and you're like, oh, I'm missing the virtue, I'm missing the human connection. I can address that. Or maybe if you're the wife, maybe this is something that like just affirms like those things that you thought were right and you're being told, like, no, this is how it's supposed to be. And it just doesn't feel like something in your soul, something in your gut, something in your heart, however, you want to label it, felt like something was lacking. This is just an affirmation of that that maybe there is something that your family could benefit from and has been negatively influenced by.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

So we'll do a part two where we will take actually, well, maybe we'll take all the red flags in those four categories and show how we can bring them into fullness within our faith for uh husbands and and wives and marriages to be able to thrive. But so if you learned something from this episode, uh please like, comment, and subscribe. If you're listening to us on just the podcast, be sure to leave us a review that has five stars in it and a lot of positive things to say. And anything else? No, I just think that's that. That's it. And and we will see you at the next episode.